This started as a post about religious fundamentalism and shifted into something else. I'll come back to the fundamentalism stuff in a different post when I get the chance, but since I'm celebrating Veteran's Day with marathon paper-writing (like Trickster the past week has been extremely busy for me on the school and Habitat fronts, hence the skimming and lurking on my part) it may have to wait a while. In any case, here's the something else part:
Praktike has just recently registered the domain Liberals Against Terrorism, in what I think is probably a long-overdue step. He says he's not sure what to do with it yet, though I suspect he has something in mind... but I'll toss in my idea on the subject anyhow.
The fact that "liberals" broadly speaking, spend less of their time commenting on the serious threats that radical fundamentalism poses to the secular, pluralistic liberal society that we cherish — as seen in the murder of the Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gogh for his controversial statements on Islam's treatment of women, among other offenses — than we do the many failings of the Bush administration's attempts at tackling this threat has in effect ceded the initiative in the debate. Rather than being the first ones to say "this is awful" and explain why from the liberal perspective, we end up being the ones adding "yes, but.." This isn't good from a political standpoint and probably not for our sense of perspective either.
As much as I don't like to admit it, there are members of the political left (and a few of them are even Democrats) who really do consider the U.S. a bigger threat to world peace than what they see as the comparatively minor threat of terrorism. I do think they are a minority within the Democratic community, but that the relative silence of the middle -- not at all helped by a media that rewards sensationalism over substance -- has allowed them a larger share of our collective voice than they deserve. This colors the rest of us in a negative light.
That the U.S. has and will continue to make mistakes in its policies I won't dispute, and that there are many important issues out there besides terrorism to be concerned over is something I think is important to establish. But we need to recognize the importance of terrorism right now and come up with a real concerted response to it beyond "Bush is doing it wrong". Oscar's comment there was tongue-in-cheek, but as long as the perception persists that "liberals don't have much to say about terrorists", it's going to be nearly impossible to move the ball any further.
The fact that Democrats have been effectively marginalized from power has made this difficult. On all the definitional fronts, the administration has the head start, making it difficult to respond without at least tacitly accepting the administration's framing. Case in point: the phrase, widely accepted but poorly defined, "Global War on Terror". I don't think that's what the Democrats want. It's a very misleading phrase and not at all helpful in dealing with the problem of terrorism or radical fundamentalism. Yet as long as that's what people think is needed in order to protect us, Democrats will continue to lose.
It is therefore imperative to come up with our own paradigm for the security of the United States. I believe Matt Yglesias (I'll dig up a link to his post on this at some point, but I've been skimming and lurking a lot lately and have only followed that discussion subconciously until just now) has phrased this as a question of obstructionism versus opposition. The former being to contest the administration's vision with the means available to us; the latter to use our energies to publicly set forth an alternate policy that shows that we take these threats seriously and have a plan for confronting them once the American people trust us with their votes to implement them.
Pace my Prof, I agree with prak that this must, if for no other reason than the current political climate — though I think there is a good argument for its value if implemented well — be a strategy that emphasizes, at least to some extent, the Wilsonian idealism and rhetoric of democracy that's informed much of our foreign policy debate. But I would like us to be slightly more precise and realistic about our goals than the neocons to the extent possible.
I think the past four years of the Bush administration have, by and large, been concerned with efforts to obstruct policies of the Bush Administration we oppose. In the wake of the election, it seems like that wasn't enough. Having started to buildup a movement infrastructure to oppose Bush, I hope we can now turn that infrastructure to formulating our own independent vision in opposition. That means publicizing the problem, from our perspective. I was going to expand more on that view of the problem with my look at how fundamentalist ideologies are in opposition to a lot of the principles like secularism, equal rights, a pluralist democracy, etc, that I at least associate with liberalism. That it's gonna have to wait for the next break in paper-writing to be rounded out fully.
And before we leap to criticize the Administration's response, come up with one of our own that uses America's full range of powers to solve it.
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Modernity Is Under Attack — To Arms!
by
MC MasterChef
at 07:34PM (EST) on November 10, 2004 | Permanent Link
Comments
Glad you approve
by
praktike
on Wed 10 Nov 2004 09:56 PM EST | Profile | Permanent Link
Natch, I agree.
So far the site has little content, as the Oscar of our little world duly noted. And of course by "terorrism" I really mean "Islamist radicalism." But tomorrow, by which time the DNS change will hopefully have propogated through the bowels of the Internets, I will install MediaWiki so that likeminded individuals can pitch in. That, after all, is the liberal thing to do. I've been rolling a few basic principles around in my head that I hope will get some discussion going once I get the Wiki set up. The first principle has to be that terrorism is never justified, ever. Period. Anyone who engages in terrorism has forever tarred themselves and their underlying cause, if there is one. Another was actually something that clicked after reading this and even this: that to make apologies for the obscurantism of the Islamist radicals while denigrating the comparatively mild intolerance of the American Christian right makes absolutely no sense at all and we need to stop doing it, right now. There has to be a way to state this idea cleanly and simply in a manner that recaptures the moral high ground and rejects both without raising the dreaded spectre of moral equivalence. I think that a lot of things will involve women's rights, but that's not my strong suit. Re: Glad you approve
by
MC MasterChef
on Thu 11 Nov 2004 12:05 AM EST | Profile | Permanent Link
Heh, maybe I'd better keep my comparative religious fundamentalisms post under permanent wraps after all then. But it sounds like a good show overall: I'll be watching at minimum, contributing as possible. Writing on China's treatment of the Uighurs has given me food for thought to chew on that might prove useful by paper's end; I'm also hoping to get into The Idea of Pakistan to have more background to draw from on that.
Fisking anybody (on the left or the right, really) doesn't really interest me personally, so that also sounds like a good plan. I'd like to see positive statements rather than tearing down the other guy's arguments; there's certainly no shortage of people willing to perform the latter task. Comparative religions
by
nadezhda
on Thu 11 Nov 2004 12:39 AM EST | Profile | Permanent Link
Apart from the highly charged nature of the discussion for believers, the primary problem with not being able to discuss the phenomenon of religious responses to modernity is the remarkable level of widespread ignorance about religion as a subject -- history, comparative, sociology of, types of religious experiences, degree of integration with other aspects of economic, social and political structures, practices vs theologies. There are some strong commonalities to patterns of religious response to modernity (and for that matter to other severe stresses) which are widespread, historical and global. This is not simply a matter of comparing certain features of US "fundies" and Islamic fundamentalists.
The educated public doesn't t treat knowledge about religion the way we do knowledge about other primary dimensions of human existence, like politics, economics, psychology, sociology. People learn something, more or less, about the religion they're raised in (if any) and about a religion they convert/drift to if that happens. Most of what information they do pick up about other religions is (1) at least half misinformation passed along through informal word-of-mouth or an occasional magazine article and (2) understood through the prism of their own religious upbringing and experience. If you belong to exclusionary religions (which is certainly the case with the whole Judaeo-Christian-Islamic tradition), then your entire religious upbringing, no matter how modern and ecumenical, has a built-in bias of the exceptional nature of your religion's relations with God and the alien "otherness" of non-believers/non-members. And then we have the various ways that certain religious strains get woven into political agendas (and vice versa). In those cases, are they universal political agendas or national or some other grouping? For example, are we likely to see the same sort of fault lines emerging in radical Islamism as developed in the Communist movement between national political agendas and the sort of Comintern approach. Fraternal relations among national groups often were of the bickering brothers kind at best. I'm not sure prak's wiki will accommodate tackling all that, but we can certainly try to make place here for some of the more "too-incindiary-to-handle" or esoteric discussions here. So don't give up on your Christianism and comparative fundamentalism stuff. In some ways it's the very guts of building a basis for thinking about prak's topics. Re: Comparative religions
by
Oscar
on Thu 11 Nov 2004 01:28 PM EST | Profile | Permanent Link
"The educated public doesn't t treat knowledge about religion the way we do knowledge about other primary dimensions of human existence" - I wonder if this is not because the 'educated public' has imbibed too much of the PoMo cool-aid. Certainly the early moderns understood religion a lot better than the current crop. How many people today get a chance to take a History of Religions course which is something more than leftist anthropology? There is a lot of good critical thnking in religious works like those of Theresa of Avilla or the Cloud author, not to mention the hesichasts or the Hindu/Buddhist tradition.
Re: Re: Comparative religions
by
Oscar
on Thu 11 Nov 2004 01:57 PM EST | Profile | Permanent Link
More on the statement: "The educated public doesn't t treat knowledge about religion the way we do knowledge about other primary dimensions of human existence"
You might want to check out this view on the difference between the religious and the secular voter Studying religions
by
nadezhda
on Thu 11 Nov 2004 03:08 PM EST | Profile | Permanent Link
I'd be quite happy with a good leftist anthropolgy for starters. That, at the very least, might provide some accuracy about practices and beliefs, as well as a vocabulary for discussing features of religions that aren't self-referential. Some of the finest sociology and anthropolgy has, in fact, been done in the field of religion, starting with the classics by Weber and Durkheim. Weber especially remains astonishingly fresh today.
Many people who are religious in America, if they study religion at all beyond scriptural or devotional study, limit their studies to their own religion to enrich their experience as an adherent. That's quite different from studying a religion as a part of human experience, thought and social organization, which is comparable to other types of human activities -- not just to other religions but to other schools of philosophy, to political thought, and to political and social movements. On the secular side, you have people who don't know anything about religion and haven't been attracted to its study because they equate study with trying to become an adherent. So the secular and religious folks are like ships passing in the night -- no shared experience, no shared knowledge base. Then if most religious folks just study their own religion, they don't even have a vocabulary or conceptual framework to talk with adherents of other religions very well. This dialogue des sourdes has real world consequences, as we've seen both in the recent election and in an inability to talk about what is occurring within Islam. if I were queen of the world I'd have as part of a "liberal arts" ed one quasi-mandatory course: an intro to World History of Major Religions that was (a) comparative, drawing out common patterns across religioius traditions of theology, religious experience, sources of authority, ritual and institutional structure and (b) placed the institutional development of principal religions in their historical context. For example, the tension between "faith and works" is found in every one of the main religious traditions, not just Christianity. Transcendence and immanence is another tension that to some degree differenetiates religions but can also be found as distinct orientations within religious traditions. The contemplative experience, monasticism, ascetics, the group estastics, are found repeatedly across religions and eras. And given how religious differences have been linked to or fueled wider conflicts, obviously even to this modern era, we should have a better grasp of how religion and political or social movements often relate. Students wouldn't walk away from a survey course having a great deal of in depth knowledge, but they'd have a basic framework for thinking about and taking on board new information. I'd then make sure that philosophy (moral, political philosphy of science, etc) and political theory courses included religious thinkers and religious problems, and that history, art history, sociology, etc explicitly included religion as part of the inquiry agenda. The object is not to "teach religion." It is critical for a securlarist or humanist society to recognize explicitly how much religion is a part of what humankind does and produces. The object is to understand others better and, in the process, have a better understanding of ourselves. Re: Studying religions
by
Oscar
on Thu 11 Nov 2004 03:33 PM EST | Profile | Permanent Link
When I refered to leftist anthro, I was thinking of the neo-Marxist or PoMo style anthro of today's schools. Weber, Durkheim et al. are a different kettle of fish.
I like your idea for the quasi-mandatory course - the course in History of Religions I took from AD Nock is the one of the two best courses I took in four years at Harvard. As well as his own deep knowlege, he drew on students of Hopi and Navajo religions as well as some of the lesser mystery religions. One thing he stressed quite bit, which you seem to leave out, is the difference between intellectual and other forms of knowlege in the religious realm. This is critical in understanding the huge differences between the mainstreams of the religions of the book on the one side and Hindu/Buddhist/general mystic thought on the other. This is also useful for the secularist/humanist, as many of them seem to take certain revelations of secularist heros as given without even trying to prove them. St. Theresa's discussions of how to know if your meditiational experience is from the God or the Devil would be useful reading for many parts of today's far left, if they could get past the terminology. Re: Studying religions
by
bondra
on Thu 11 Nov 2004 10:08 PM EST | Profile | Permanent Link
The problem is that it is cognitively infinitely easier to critically evaluate religion as a political or social phenomena from the secular or non-believer side than it is from the believer side.
In many cases, the very nature of faith demands an orientation to reality that regards a too rigorously "scientific" analysis of religion and its roots -- sociological, psychological, historical, economic, whatever -- as something that is itself inconsistent with the divine nature of the particular message. Without getting into the (generally useless) faith versus science discussion, I think that for many believers, operating from the inside of a hermetic faith, sociological or psychological or economic phenomena aren't particularly helpful to an understanding of faith -- to the contrary, it is faith (or the message underlying the faith) that explains these phenomena. So in a sense, even to contemplate this sort of integrated, "scientific" analysis of religion as a sociological or psychological phenomenon among many other phenomena is, for many faithful, to undermine the exceptionalism of their own faith. It's either threatening for that reason, or just an irrelevance. Now, to my mind, this ain't good -- though I've often struggled with how to articulate why it ain't good, and how to responsibly weave together the various truths that these sorts of broader analyses produce. To that end, I've spent a lot of time recently thinking and reading about modern ecumenicism. It's the only way out of the trap of hermetic, self-referential, culturally isolated faith -- and doesnt it seem like a big chunk of the world's problems right now can be traced back to precisely that phenomenon? Along those lines, I'm plowing right now through Hans Kung's "Christianity: Essence, History and Future." It's a big, big read (both substantively and by gross weight), but so far it's very much worth the effort. Re: Re: Studying religions
by
JC
on Fri 12 Nov 2004 01:06 AM EST | Profile | Permanent Link
Huh - I'm away for a couple of days, I come back, one of the primary subjects I'm interested in - authentic religious thought, practice, and development in the context of a modern, progressive life - has the beginnings of some rather thoughtful posts.
Very nice. Oscar, I appreciate very much your elucidation of the "context" if you will, of evaluating "truths" in different realms. There is quite the conflict between "divine intuition", as received by personal experience, and whether this intuition is from "the God or the Devil". There has to be a - very open-ended - method of analyzing intuitions and practices, within the context of various other value structures, or truths. A religious intuition and shared faith meets the world, and must be productive and useful for people (if not for power) in the world. NOT solipsistic, as Oscar mentions. On a media/political level, I've mentioned the problem before - this unthinking reflection of near-atheism contrasted with unthinking fundamentalism, as if this is the "story". Another he said/she said. All I can do hear is reiterate what you guys have said (but you say it better) that this is far fom a true reflection of the reality of worship and spiritual practice. Re: Re: Studying religions
by
Oscar
on Fri 12 Nov 2004 01:50 PM EST | Profile | Permanent Link
"The problem is that it is cognitively infinitely easier to critically evaluate religion as a political or social phenomena from the secular or non-believer side than it is from the believer side" This may seem true to the secular person, but I suspect that the literature of Hinduism, Buddhism and Christianity all disprove the point. One thing these three reliigions have in common is a wide variety of practices and beliefs all under the same roof. This certainly helps get the requisite distance. Judaism might also fit, but I know less about its literature, and next to nothing about the secondary literature in Islam, although it seems less rich than that of the four other religions I mention.
Wiki box
by
nadezhda
on Thu 11 Nov 2004 12:44 AM EST | Profile | Permanent Link
Made an ad box for your wiki. The text is just to give you something to start with. I always find it easier to react to something than to start to fill a blank sheet of paper/screen. The component is LATwiki.
Re: Wiki box
by
praktike
on Thu 11 Nov 2004 01:06 AM EST | Profile | Permanent Link
Thanks! I updated the link and now I'm trying to figure out how to install MediaWiki.
BTW, these Wiki things are amazing ... check this out. Who can think like that? Not me. okay
by
praktike
on Thu 11 Nov 2004 10:08 AM EST | Profile | Permanent Link
Re: okay
by
nadezhda
on Thu 11 Nov 2004 10:17 AM EST | Profile | Permanent Link
I think I've found another multifunctional s/w answer. Watch your email!
btw
by
praktike
on Thu 11 Nov 2004 03:42 PM EST | Profile | Permanent Link
Would you like to pitch in with a wiki page for liberal internationalism?
Re: Glad you approve
by
Oscar
on Thu 11 Nov 2004 01:13 PM EST | Profile | Permanent Link
p - " And of course by 'terorrism' I really mean 'Islamist radicalism.'"
A small suggestion, if I may, would be to include ALL terrorism, lest the site be subject to the canard that leftist terrorism is fine. I suspect that, even with the broader scope, 98% of the discussion will about jihadi terrorism. before I forget
by
praktike
on Wed 10 Nov 2004 10:14 PM EST | Profile | Permanent Link
One thing I'd like to avoid is Hitchensonian/Sullivanian attacks on the left, which may make the right feel good but tend to alienate more than they persuade, pace Ron Rosenbaum. As such, the goal should be to tease out and reaffirm beliefs that are already in strong supply on the left, not to embarrass or "fisk" people. Nor should we be providing ammunition for the right to use against the Demcratic Party; this is an attempt to begin the rebranding process.
Re: before I forget
by
Oscar
on Thu 11 Nov 2004 03:17 PM EST | Profile | Permanent Link
This chap seems to suggest a similar program to prak's
Re: Modernity Is Under Attack — To Arms!
by
Eric Martin
on Thu 11 Nov 2004 12:53 PM EST | Profile | Permanent Link
Good point prak. That is an important distinction.
Re: Modernity Is Under Attack — To Arms!
by
Oscar
on Thu 11 Nov 2004 01:21 PM EST | Profile | Permanent Link
"The fact that Democrats have been effectively marginalized from power has made this difficult" - I would change that to read "have effectively marginalized themselves", but the point is a good one. I prefer "Jihadi War" to GWoT myself, but the latter designation does fall in line with praktike's point that " that terrorism is never justified". The problem with the GWoT phrase is that it refers to a struggle which is all about jihadis, and has nothing to do with other groups.
Your general point about opposition is a good one as well, but I think you need to consider the strong Jacksonian current already alive and well in the US: Bush has opponents who think he does too little. It might be good to keep in mind that the greatest threat to Modernity is Post Modernism, not Islamic conservatism. Clean up that part of the Democratic party mess, and you will be well on your way to coming up with sane alternatives in the Jihadi War. Trackbacks
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